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An interesting comment on Protestant-Jewish relations.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by SwordOfStCatherine, Jul 11, 2017.

  1. SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Political Irish

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    Before anyone starts yet I realize that "The Occidental Observer" doesn't present a balanced approach in general to the Jewish Question however their articles are also by and large intelligently written and usually backed up with facts. Also it's the eve of the "12 th" and Jewish involvement with and wholesale profiting by Billy the Pink's Coup is not something that I can forget.

    Anyway I find this very interesting and thought it might be of interest to some others on here to;

    "[Oppenheimer]: I said to him, “You spend so much time among anti-Zionists. How can you tell which ones, which minority, are anti-Semites?” And he said, “Well, that’s easy.” He said, “It’s the liberal Protestants. The Jews aren’t anti-Semitic, even if they’re called self-loathing. And the Muslims aren’t anti-Semitic, because they get us.” He said they understand everything about us, as we understand everything about them. He said it’s the well-meaning leftie Protestants. They profess a deep spiritual kinship with Jews, they’ve often lived in the Middle East, they’ve led tours there."

    Bruce Shipman and the Idealized Image of Jews among Elite Protestants
     
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  2. Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator

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    As an outside observer, it's easy enough to think that Protestantism is some kind of Return to Zion - bypassing all the centuries of Roman Catholic theology to get to the Real of the Bible. But I suspect that Protestant \ Jewish relations don't really operate on such an abstract and intellectual level. It seems that while many Christians of all denominations pay lip service to Judaism, there is always a visceral dislike of the Jew and his whole culture.
     
  3. OP
    SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Political Irish

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    I can see why you would say that and there are elements of truth in it however there are important things you are missing. Firstly outside of elements of Hasidism, Judaism puts hardly any stress on what you feel, it is what you do that is important. With Protestants it is almost the other way around, what you feel is the major thing and if your heart is wrong than there isn't almost any point in doing works. Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodoxy) understand that there is a dialectal nature between doing and feeling and feeling and doing which both Prods and Jews miss. Alongside Protestants put great stress on sincerity and honesty- while with Jews your "heart being right with the Lord" isn't the thing, the thing is being right in your deeds with the community and looking after it's interests that can be the major thing which when Prods discover them doing so can often be utterly repulsed by them. I'm separating Protestants from Freemasons here because actually the two are distinct in very many ways though a lot of Freemasons will pass themselves off as Protestants. Also the Prods referenced in the article would be types very much removed from being "Fleggers" (I'm using the term in a Religious and not ethnic sense). Also remember what is the most important part of the Bible for Protestants? The letters of St Paul. What is the thing in the New Testament that Jews really cannot stand? The letters of St Paul.

    Despite Orthodox Judaism often appearing Ascetic to us because of all it's rules Judaism is a very this worldly "down to earth" practical Religion which has no problems at all with making money and seeking to get rich. In Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy there is at least a sense of shame attached to commerce that can cross the line into out right condemnation. It is this more than anything else which has led to Jewry being able to thrive in Protestant countries more so than in Catholic ones and none more so than in the United States. It would be a mistake though to believe that they respect it more than they do Catholicism and Orthodoxy on those grounds- no actually they find it a vulgar, overly emotional and barbaric approach to Religion.
     
  4. Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator

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    I never knew that the Letters of St. Paul are so important to Protestants. It's strange that we Catholics and Protestants have lived so long on such a small island - and know so little about each other. But, I suppose the history is to blame for that.
     
  5. OP
    SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Political Irish

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    For some reason very many Irish Catholics and Protestants seem incapable of discussing Theology with each other without descending into aggressive sloganeering so knowing that out of politeness avoid doing so. And the ones that both can and do discuss it in a civil manner tend to be united in a sentimental but pretentious Libtardism that has very little to do with Christianity in any way as well as a disdain for ordinary Believing Catholics and Protestants.
     
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  6. Generation Snowflake

    Generation Snowflake Member Political Irish

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    Sorry slightly old thread, and not sure if im completely missing the point of it, but

    I thought when talking in general, as a default for knowing the jewish perspective on its relationship to islam and christianity you need to look at Maimonides,
    as "From moses to moses theres only one moses". And he said, http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/...y-bad-muslims-bad-christians-good/2013/11/15/ in general, Christianity is bad as it tries to supercede judaism, and so all forms of christianity are bad, but unlike with islam, you can at least debate about the old testament with christians.
    So protestant/catholic etc.. will allways be looked down upon by the jew.

    The question is does the protestant version of the bible being preached have in it, for example, Matthew Chapter 27, Verse 25
    24 When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You shall bear the responsibility.”
    25 All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

    This was why awl poor mel gibson got it in the neck over his film, who killed christ, The Controversy Rages: Mel Gibson's "The Passion"
    also relates to Nostra aetate - Wikipedia Nostra aetate which the jewish lobby tried and failed to get validated during vatican 2.

    Though they seem to think it did get validated at least in spirit, which is a different story Nostra Aetate: The Popes' Proclimation that the Jews are Not Responsible for Killing Jesus

    And other examples would be supersessionism Supersessionism - Wikipedia
    But in the end as far as the church is concerned Notes on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church
    “Church and Judaism cannot then be seen as two parallel ways of salvation and the Church must witness to Christ as the Redeemer of all.”

    And Matthew Chapter 27, Verse 25 and other such verse's havent been taken out of the catholic bible :)

    Anyway, my point being, is it not just a scale of how bad to worse with regard how jews will see all forms of christianity ?

    I am not familiar with issues with the jews and Paul other then Paul was against Peter elevating jewish converts above other non jewish converts. Where do i start on that one ?
     
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  7. OP
    SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Political Irish

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    Basically while Liberal Jews have come to look upon Jesus as a "Great son of Israel" they see St Paul as the founder of Christianity. Their major problems with him is that he exalts Abraham over Moses which is a huge deal for them, that he denigrates the Law (at times in St Paul's Letters it almost seems as if he regards the Law as something evil) , that he said that the Law wasn't directly given to Moses by God but was given by angels and also that he discounted any importance to physically belonging to the Hebrew people. A lot of them claim that he couldn't really have been a Jew.

    Hyam Macobby's books are good place to start if you are interested in Jewish views on St Paul (they are basically highly nonsensical in places rants though):





    "A Radical Jew" by Rabbi Daniel Boyarin presents the issues in modern academic language, it is also a pretty strange book (he tries to bring in Feminist Theory in order to defend Rabbinic Judaism which is a Religion that couldn't be called women friendly at all for instance). It is online here;

    A Radical Jew

    You could also just read over St Paul's Letters to the Romans and Galatians yourself with Rabbinic Judaism (which was still not fully formed than) in mind.
     
  8. OP
    SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Political Irish

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    St Paul features a lot in Muslim Anti-Christian polemics as well. Nietzsche also saw him as the "real founder" of Christianity while Jesus he regarded as some character like the simple minded Prince in "The Idiot". There was a stage in the early Church when St Paul was regarded with suspicion by the "Great Church" (Tertullian called him the Apostle of the heretics) because the Marcionites and Gnostics drew so heavily on him. There is quite a bit of strange and mysterious stuff in his Letters if you can bring yourself to read them with "fresh eyes".
     
  9. Generation Snowflake

    Generation Snowflake Member Political Irish

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    I think ill have a look at this when i get the time. Thanks.

    I am bad on the early church and the different groups. Again something I need to read into when I get a chance.

    You can spend a whole thread on this alone. At some point I might follow up on this
     
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