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Hans-Joachim Schoeps and Max Brod; quotes on Zionism.

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#1
As a lot of you know one of my major interests is in Pre-Nicene Christianity. Two of my all time favourite books on the subject are Marcion: The Gospel of Alien God by Adolf Von Harnack and Jewish Christianity: Factional disputes in the early Church by Hans Joachim Schoeps which is about the Ebionites. The Ebionites were the direct opposite it could be said to Marcion and his followers in the tumultuous second century of Christian history. The latter though he believed in the realities reported in the Old Testament saw them as coming from a different God to the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ while the latter though they had a very complex attitude to the received Old Testament text saw the Law and circumcision being still in force and didn't see Jesus as being Divine with a capital "D". What I find so attractive about these books is the obvious empathy and enthusiasm for the subjects they were written with (I'm not so a great fan of Adolf Von Harnack's other works).

However for some reason I never until recently looked into Hans- Joachim Schoeps but doing so I found a man who was both a total character and a man of strong character who has gone down the memory hole for political reasons. He was a youthful prodigy who led an organization called Deutscher Vortrupp which has been described as an organization of Jewish sympathizers with the NSADP- I don't believe this because he described himself as life long Prussian Monarchist and Hitler was a centralizer who despised Monarchy, however they were definitely Revolutionary Conservatives who sought German National Liberation. He did though write a book after Hitler's coming to power encouraging Jews to stay in Germany and remain loyal which also put forward the idea that things could be patched up between the German Jewish community and the Hitlerites. In the end he managed to escape but his parents both died in Nazi concentration camps. That book is the reason why despite his brilliant genius so few people have heard about him.

After the WW II ended he returned to Germany and remained essentially political unchanged, even he was a member of a "National Conservative" fraternal organization that included ex-Nazis and had links to the Socialist Reich Party. When his past came to light in the 1960s he was forced out of his academic career by Ultra-Leftists. There is a lot more to be said about him. His approach to Theology is really fascinating.

Anyway he had a brief friendship and collaboration with Max Brod who was in charge of Franz Kafka's literary estate (he had written very interesting things on Kafka) but they had a major falling out due to politics. Max Brod was a militant Zionist and Hans Joachim Schoeps was a life long anti-Zionist.

Here are the quotes;
 
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SwordOfStCatherine
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#2
"I have great reason to doubt that Zionism represents an objective return to Judaism. In fact I see it as nothing else than an after-effect of Western European Imperialism (the German Conservative Revolutionaries in general saw Germans as being distinct from Western Europe), a product of the Occident's secularized realm of thought. Zionism is not a religious movement. It's conception of the Jewish people secularizes all that is Religious, and turns the people of God into a worldly people, thereby distorting Jewish reality...I am sorry if I cannot but regard Zionism as a threat to real Judaism, possibly even greater than that of Liberalism which was harmless since it was merely ideological. In Zionism, however, an active transformation of the Jewish substance occurs towards secularization".

Hans Joachim Schoeps.
 
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SwordOfStCatherine
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#3
Now for Max Brod, I wonder does he remind of you of any posters on this forum?

"The Jew who takes the National problem seriously finds himself today in the midst of the following paradox; he must fight nationalism with the aim of establishing universal human fellowship, and he must simultaneously stand with the young Jewish National movement. He repudiates all forms of Nationalism with one exception; the Jewish variety of Nationalism, which he believes is justified."

Though those words could have been written by an anti-Semite they were actually written by an ardent Zionist who saw that situation as a perfectly okay thing.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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#4
"I have great reason to doubt that Zionism represents an objective return to Judaism. In fact I see it as nothing else than an after-effect of Western European Imperialism (the German Conservative Revolutionaries in general saw Germans as being distinct from Western Europe), a product of the Occident's secularized realm of thought. Zionism is not a religious movement. It's conception of the Jewish people secularizes all that is Religious, and turns the people of God into a worldly people, thereby distorting Jewish reality...I am sorry if I cannot but regard Zionism as a threat to real Judaism, possibly even greater than that of Liberalism which was harmless since it was merely ideological. In Zionism, however, an active transformation of the Jewish substance occurs towards secularization".

Hans Joachim Schoeps.

This is a point that Rabbi Weiss and other religious Jews make. Zionism is a racial ideology, not a religious one. It has it's roots in the same Darwinian worldview as Nazism does.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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#5
Now for Max Brod, I wonder does he remind of you of any posters on this forum?

"The Jew who takes the National problem seriously finds himself today in the midst of the following paradox; he must fight nationalism with the aim of establishing universal human fellowship, and he must simultaneously stand with the young Jewish National movement. He repudiates all forms of Nationalism with one exception; the Jewish variety of Nationalism, which he believes is justified."

Though those words could have been written by an anti-Semite they were actually written by an ardent Zionist who saw that situation as a perfectly okay thing.

And this is the power and utility of the Mythical Holocaust (as opposed to the real event). Since the Mythical Holocaust is the Exception of Exceptions, it allow Zionism exemption from all the normal rules of logic.
 

Anglophile

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#6
Heartwarming to see the interest and affection of you guys, for Jews and Judaism.....:smiley:

Now move along, and educate yourselves, to an appreciation of Zionism....:cool:
 
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#8
Heartwarming to see the interest and affection of you guys, for Jews and Judaism.....:smiley:

Now move along, and educate yourselves, to an appreciation of Zionism....:cool:
Tele I have actually read some primary Zionist texts though a bit of research will tell you that the more shall we say colourful ones haven't made it into Western European languages (I wonder why...:confused:). Carl Schmitt who is now recognized as one of the greatest political and legal thinkers of the 20 th century nearly went down the memory hole due to foolish mistake of believing that once Hitler had come to power that it would be best to work within the regime, something he later repented for going into internal exile. It is clear to me that in Hans Joachim Schoeps we have an important Central European and Jewish Religious thinker who has gone down the memory hole because out of Patriotic enthusiasm we wrote a book misjudging the situation at the age of 24 and than went on to oppose those elements of "De-Nazification" which were not so much about De-Nazifying" but De-Germanizing Germany. An interest in Ernst Junger even though he was never anti-Semitic and always despised Hitler is seen as incriminating or at least suggestive of being some "Fascist" who wants to shove homosexuals and Jews into gas chambers in a lot of Anglosphere academia.
 
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#9
And this is the power and utility of the Mythical Holocaust (as opposed to the real event). Since the Mythical Holocaust is the Exception of Exceptions, it allow Zionism exemption from all the normal rules of logic.
That quote comes though from the 1920s. However as Max Flynn has pointed that roc_ is an extremist, even within the Zionist spectrum, and yet at the same time he staunchly opposes my mild Celtic Nationalism.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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#10
That quote comes though from the 1920s. However as Max Flynn has pointed that roc_ is an extremist, even within the Zionist spectrum, and yet at the same time he staunchly opposes my mild Celtic Nationalism.

Yes, that quote comes from the 1920s, but the Mythical Holocaust "resolves" the contradiction in it - as Zionism is no longer held accountable for its contradictions - to do so would be classed as "anti-Semitism."