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Hot Leftism, The Left, Cultural Marxism, "Actual" Marxism and the Alt-Right

Discussion in 'Political Philosophy' started by FairstoodtheWind, Oct 12, 2016.

  1. FairstoodtheWind

    FairstoodtheWind Member Political Irish

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    I must admit to finding this stuff quite confusing. I had always considered myself Left-wing, but the recent position of parties and groups on Left has me quite at a loss to continue defining myself as such. It is not so much their economic analysis rather their lack of any national or traditional basis. For example with Corbyn's Labour, I am very attracted to his reversal of privatization of transport and NHS etc, however his support for the EU and his failure to take mass migration seriously, leave me very cold toward him. He seems to think that British people are anybody who can pitch up on the island of GB, and if Luton becomes colder version of Lahore, that's fine, for a Labour government will run the buses and provide a new community center. Yet they claim (in this case Corbyn Labout/Momentum) they are Left. Are they right, and I am wrong.

    I can see that NGO/ shadow state groups, like Amnesty International and Oxfam, MSF etc are working for a "general good", maybe could be said to be following Gramsci or Alinksy approach, that if the heights of government cannot be captured, then a long march through the institutions can capture the culture of a state and the population brought to support them. Many will claim this is globalism, but is it a Marxist style spread of a world revolution? Something that Trotsky would have supported if he was still around? I, again, find myself in strong sympathy for the nation state. Even sympathetic for the English to find their country's institutions swamped by people who have no regard for them or way of life (many will say they deserve no better)

    When I look at US politics, the Alt-Right seem to have good analysis of cultural problem that the SJW and the LGBT lobby are creating there. I watch Stefan Molyeaux on Youtube alot and know that he is a Libertarian, and find his take on economics tough to stomach, but he presents in a very rational and can be very convincing. The extremes of this analysis leads to a conclusion that the Left view white people as the problem and the sooner they are removed the happier the world be. And I can see that in terms of previous wars and imperialism they have a point. Can the SJW & LGBT agenda be considered left, as it seems that it too is Gramsci/Alinsky in it's intent to destroy the patriarchal/capitalist/ imperialist societies.

    Even when it comes to the war in Syria, I read this recently on the page of Gearoid O'Colmain who came to speak to anti- war rally. I respect his work very much.

    [​IMG]


    Gearóid Ó Colmáin

    October 8 at 8:46pm ·

    I was invited by ShannonWatch, an Irish 'peace' organisation, to give a talk at a seminar about NATO's wars. I was delighted to participate in such an event and was going to talk about Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Libya, Syria and many more countries, explaining NATO's geopolitical strategies and ambitions. When I arrived at the event, I was told by the organiser that I could not speak as he had heard I was "anti-semitic" and "homophobic". He had never read anything I wrote! He said organisations ShannonWatch are affiliated with intervened and asked that I be prevented from speaking. Amnesty International and the Irish Anti-War movement are among the affiliates. In 2011, the Irish anti-war movement supported the NATO-backed terrorists in Libya. They continue to back the terrorists in Syria. As for Amnesty International, they are the public relations whores of fascism. Hardly surprising, therefore, that they would want to prevent me from informing some of the genuine and good people who were there today. Forget about the buffoons of the far right, the real fascists today are the self-righteous, cowardly, ignorant, smug, reactionary, petty-bourgeois leftists! They make me sick!



    So Is there even a Left anymore? Is this stuff in anyway related to Marx? Or do the old labels even apply anymore? Is the 21st century shaping up into what Dugin would say Liberalism vs Traditional, or Globalism vs Nationalism. Is there a place for "real" marxism?

    I have probably made lots of of mistakes in this, regarding how i interpret these thinkers and ideologies to be about. Perhaps posters could offer clarity?
     
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  2. SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    Brilliant OP. A lot of us actually feel that way.

    In think what we are seeing is Right and Left individualism and nihilism merge together while there has been a coming together of the Communitarian Left and Right in Russia and France to a large degree which I see as very positive. Irish Republicanism could have naturally flowed into something similar but instead in choose a very different route- I dont why and I have difficulty working out why.
     
  3. linda parsons

    linda parsons New Member Political Irish

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    I think the traditional boundaries have changed, its no longer normal to consider someone left or right in the traditional method.
     
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  4. SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    There is actually a long tradition of "Reactionary Socialism" going back to the English Christian Socialists of the 19 th and early 20 th centuries, Georges Sorel and Les Camelots Du Roi in France as well as Russian and German National Bolshevikism (Eduard Limonov is a scummy chancer- however the Essence of Time Movement and the Orthodox Patriot wing of Communist Party of the Russian Federation are not). A huge problem with people on this Island speaking English is that its very easy for us to get sucked to American trends and American ways of thinking. Whatever anyone says we are very different and in a very different situation to the Seppos. Their Left is almost completely toxic outside of some of the Black Nationalists- and note that I say just some- and anything good about their Alt Right has been nicked from the Nouvelle Droite of 1980s France (Alain De Benoist is a brilliant man who has said "I am a Leftist from the Right and Rightist from the Left" and even better I think "I have Left wing ideas and Right wing values"- though if the ROI has a Right in the sense he meant that in it would be "Faith and Fatherland" Republicans such as Sean South rather than the trash of the Reform Group or people like "Young Student" here).
     
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  5. Kershaw

    Kershaw Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    There was a funny video that summed up the cognitive dissonance required in the left right now.

    Canadian PM Justin "I’ll Keep Saying I’m A Feminist Until There’s No Reaction" Trudeau visits a sex-segregated mosque and hails the “sisters upstairs”.



    When questioned, just repeat the platitude "diversity is a source of strength" and deflect.

     
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  6. The Potato Mystic

    The Potato Mystic Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    Well, my positions are summed up in Alain Soral's phrase, "left worker, right family". It's an anti-globalist position that includes the potent aspects of both "Wings" as it were. I think the plurality of beliefs that converged within the leadership of 1916 is pleasantly consistent with this perspective.

    Globalism has devoured both the left and right and reconfigured and returned them as agents of destruction. So we've trot demolition experts dominating the landscape by edict of George Soros.

    I'm in the rather eccentric position of liking Trump and Corbyn despite the terrible vices and confusions that mar both. Trump's irreverence towards PC and globalist dogma is commendable and important whilst Corbyn's integrity, desire to steer Britain away from Atlanticist militarism commends him. I celebrate them both as intermediate if perplexing figures.

    Jettisoning Political Correctness is paramount because PC forbids the discussion of unpleasant but critical issues and mandates flattery in its stead. If one can't discuss unpleasant but critical issues still less tackle them, then problems fester and expand until disaster occurs. So it's critical that PC is overthrown to free up the arteries of frank conversation in politics. The "alt-right" is useful in that I suppose but there's an undercurrent of misanthropy that I think is unfortunate.

    As for Ireland, there's no movement as such and the landscape for radical opposition is fairly desolate but there's a sprinkling of individuals that are interesting. The most high profile of which is Peadar Tóibín who by taking a very staunch pro-life view transgressed globalism in a very radical way. And there are a smattering of other of such types too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  7. Ned Ryerson

    Ned Ryerson Member Political Irish

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    Short and simple : those on the left of every hue are vermin.
    Communism, Marxism, Socialism, any one with an affiliation to this blight upon the surface of the Earth should be shot.
     
  8. Dublin 4

    Dublin 4 Legend Donator Battle Royale Political Irish Political Irish

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    TG is the ultimate lefty & has Zero time for Mass Immigration- the so called "Left" here are Gaystapo & Southern Unionist Hijackers of an Ideal which went into Recession after the Berlin wall fell.
     
  9. SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    From the other place;

    y Mercurial [​IMG]
    He is not a serious challenge to Hillary. The Republicans had literally a dozen serious candidates and they decided to choose the only one who couldn't beat her.

    REF in reply;

    "Au contraire, he was the only with the faintest ability to connect to ordinary working people. Bernie Sanders let the side down massively by not going totally for the juglar against Hilary (of course his allowing himself to humilated by Black Lives Matter thugs didnt help either); we are where we are. Trump is far from perfect but the cause of working people and world peace which is what the left should be about and not mollycoddling tranny degenerates will be much, much, much better served by him than by Hilary."

    Ratio Et Fides [​IMG]
    Au contraire, he was the only with the faintest ability to connect to ordinary working people. Bernie Sanders let the side down massively by not going totally for the juglar against Hilary (of course his allowing himself to humilated by Black Lives Matter thugs didnt help either); we are where we are. Trump is far from perfect but the cause of working people and world peace which is what the left should be about and not mollycoddling tranny degenerates will be much, much, much better served by him than by Hilary.

    And Merc lad in reply;


    Mercurial [​IMG]
    You really are an awful person.

    And REF in reply;

    Why is that Merc?

    Let us have something straight; Honecker, the old poster here before my time who was a member of the Workers Party of Ireland but quite Socially Conservative and not shy about expressing that Social Conservatism, did you feel you had more in common with him or with CookieMonster?

    To which there was and probably will be no answer.

    Trump v Clinton,"Fight Night" -The Decider 19/10/2016 - Page 8
     
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  10. Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Donator Battle Royale Political Irish

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    A lot of very interesting insights there a chara. It certainly is extraordinary they way the Left has gone from being hard core working class leaders like James Connolly to decadent Liberals like Eoin Ó Broin. It seems to me that after the fall of the Soviet Union the Western Left just gave up on economics and the working class, and just concentrated on sexual issues. The Oligarchs realised that traditional rules of sexuality and family were actually a barrier to profit, so suddenly the Left became the best friends of the Oligarchs.
     
  11. Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Donator Battle Royale Political Irish

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    Communism, Marxism and Socialism are almost the polar opposite of today's trendy lefties.
     
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  12. SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    That is part of Seppo/Yankee culture (I prefer the term Seppo to describe them than Yankee, it is more biting and cant be construed as affectionate); that undercurrent exists as much in the so called "Social Justice Warriors" as it does in the Alt Right- actually with both its more than an undercurrent but a bit of a driving passion. What the Alt Right does not have though is the narcissistic sentimentality that you find almost universally in Americans. It would be extremely arrogant of us to think that we could sort them out but one thing we can do is protect ourselves from their pioson. People should try to a learn another European language and really get their minds around the culture it is a part of. Also people should try to improve their improve their Irish; one of the reasons that Welsh Protestantism is so superior to Ulster Protestantism in all respects is that all the best Welsh Prods not only speak but think in Welsh and this protects for degenerating American influences, my dad for instance believes in a "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" and yet calls himself a Presbyterian, you wouldnt get a Welsh person doing that. Unless Southern Ireland wanted to be full on integrated into the mainland UK which it didnt and doesnt speaking English as a first language is actually not a bonus but minus.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  13. SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    I dont find Taigh confusing at all unlike the Shinners. I think he does confuse though a fair few of the people on P.ie.
     
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  14. mossyman

    mossyman New Political Irish

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    The left sold out and adopted "equality issues" like transexuality instead of worker control and union organisation. The results are all around us.
     
  15. Count Hockmeister

    Count Hockmeister Member Political Irish

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    Its as if they they abandoned left principles and went liberal.

    In the UK New Labour went far right under Blair but now they are returning to the Crazies.
     
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  16. Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Donator Battle Royale Political Irish

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    I find that some on what is called the Alt-Right still cling on to dreams about "free markets," and Capitalism. Well, they should look around them and see what the results are. Capitalism needs the free movement of cheap labour, i.e. mass immigration. If you support Capitalism, you automatically support mass immigration. Of course, many on the Alt-Right are really old fashioned Socialists.
     
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  17. Kershaw

    Kershaw Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    I don't think free movement of labour is defining feature of capitalism.
    You can have a free market economy without free movement of labour.
    Yes, free movement of labour does benefit business owners and hurt native workers.
    Once one business takes advantage of free movement, then the others have to in order to compete.
    The alt-right does not have a manifesto and allows for a broad range of discussion on economic systems and other topics depending who is talking.
    A lot of them see the merits of a hierarchy & aristocracy.
    It isn't really clearly defined which is why they are worried about the label being hi-jacked by just general Donald Trump supporters and people opposed to SJWism.
    It's two defining features, I would say are the two taboos:

    The willingness to discuss race and global Jewish influence.

    However a lot of people like Jared Taylor would not really concern themselves with the Jewish question while others like David Duke are consumed by it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
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  18. SwordOfStCatherine

    SwordOfStCatherine Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    You have old fashioned Socialists in the Front National in France and the English Democrats in England (who actually tried to be friendly with the Shinners but the Shinners told them to fuck off- they are for the break up of the UK); but in the Seppo Alt Right? Not so much. Seppos lack gravitas and their Alt-Right is often as much about posing as their Social Justice Warriors are.
     
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  19. The Potato Mystic

    The Potato Mystic Legend Battle Royale Political Irish

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    The alt-right is basically people of every stripe who jettison political correctness. I'm not sure there's more coherency than that other than swapping Pepe pics and ostracising mainstream "cucks", who are people who present themselves as "centre right" but in fact espouse globalist lunacy. Unfortunately some people push back against manic do-goodery with a wilful misanthropy and I think both can give encouragement to the system.

    Be that as it may, pushing back on muddled do-goodery is most certainly God's work, so alt-right types certainly vindicate themselves on balance. PC needs to go as a matter of priority. It's like a large python strangling our ability to conduct meaningful conversations on vital issues.

    As for capitalism, it's intrinsically anti-nationalist and anti-human. It puts the money men in charge. Capitalism isn't this static thing that obeys commands. It's like the universe, it seeks to infinitely expand in a world of finite resources. It's a slow burning pyramid scheme essentially. It can only be regulated temporarily until transnational cartels devise counter strategies to overcome the curbs national governments may place upon their excesses to win yet more profit. That's if the political parties aren't dominated by the capitalists themselves, which is what mostly happens. The national interest does not feature on the calculus of the capitalist, profit is his master.

    An anti-capitalist attitude shouldn't be confused with an anti-business attitude or an opposition to the private sector per say. An anti-capitalist position need only entail that the economy serves the people and makes conservation the highest good in economic activity.
     
  20. Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Donator Battle Royale Political Irish

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    I really do think that the free movement of labour and capital are the defining features of Capitalism. Marx explains it very well when he analyses the transition from Feudalism to Capitalism. In Feudalism, the peasant was tied to his lord and to the land of his lord. That was certainly the case for Serfs, but, in reality, for all other peasants too. It really wasn't easy to just move off from one place to another. Capitalism had to break this system because it needed to take those peasants from the Feudal lord, and put them to work in the Capitalist factories. Without this free movement of labour, Capitalism couldn't have happened. The next step was the end of slavery in the Americas. Again, tens of millions of slaves worked on the lands of what were effectively Feudal lords in North and South America. Capitalism couldn't expand without that labour. So the likes of Lincoln were funded by the Capitalists to break slavery and allow labour to move freely. As Marx puts it, as free as a bird - Vogelfrei. Vogelfrei is an excellent description of the this new order. It literally means "free as a bird," but in German history it means a vagrant, or a social outcast. Somebody for whom "freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose." Today, the process of making labour Vogelfrei has moved on from the destruction of the Feudal lords to the destruction of the nation state. If there are desperate workers in Uganda who will work for next to nothing, and an Irish employer wants desperate cheap labour - then why should national borders be allowed to stand in the way of his profits?

    It's the same process with capital itself, which was once locked in the land, and so under the power of the Feudal lords and the Church. Indeed, as Sword Of Saint Catherine has pointed out on this forum, Henry VIII's "reformation" was really about robbing Church lands and wealth, and putting into the hands of the emerging Capitalist classes.

    These are questions that the Right and the Alt-Right seem reluctant to ask themselves. We have inherited certain nonsensical paradigms from the past - such as that if you are socially conservative you must not dare to appreciate Marx. Or, if you are a Leftist, you must not dare to appreciate the social structures that have been built up over two million years of human evolution. We must raise above these cliches, if we are to defeat the enemy of all humanity - which is Capitalism and its running dog, Liberalism.