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Lenin on the Fake Lefties that pose as Marxists in Europe today

Discussion in 'Political Philosophy' started by Tadhg Gaelach, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. Embers

    Embers New Member Political Irish

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    " I expect that Communism will always take on the national characteristics of any given nation. Obviously, South American Communism would never look like Chinese or Korean Communism, and Irish Communism would be very different again."

    This is a fascist Maxim almost verbatim, just swap out the word 'communisim'.

    Again Communisim/Marxisim is an international ideology.

    I'm against central planning of the economy.

    I'm against state interference in everyday life, including things such as education, the press, healthcare etc.

    I'm against the idea of equality for all. We are not equal. To say we are is to misrepresent the world.

    I'm against the international nature of it.

    As mentioned elsewhere, everywhere it has manifested itself, it has resulted in pain, suffering and untold death.

    It is man's vain attempt to subvert the natural order of the world.

    There has been not one single successful Communist state. Not one single successful Socialist state.

    Marxisim reads like a utopian paradise. But a critical eye on every Socialist/Communist tells a different story.
     
  2. OP
    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    You are against the state being involved in healthcare? So you would take us back to the 19th century when infant mortality in Ireland was around 20%. And only the children of the rich having an education?
     
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    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    The USSR was a highly successful state. It took what had been a Feudal Russian Empire and turned it into the industrial superpower that defeated the Wermacht in just one generation. China has also been a success in many ways. You can say that it uses Capitalism, but so do a lot of other countries and they are still in poverty. What really makes China succeed is that Capitalism there is directed by the Communist Party. If you look at the countries in the Caribbean and Central America, you will have to admit that Cuba is one of the most successful, and certainly a safer place to live. Vietnam and Laos are doing very well, and the DPRK is doing brilliantly - given the criminal sanctions its under. Indeed, it seems the fear is that if the sanctions were lifted, the DPRK economy would be one of the strongest in the region.
     
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    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    Communism is the natural order. For two million years of our evolution, we lived in Primitive Communist groups where private property didn't exist.
     
  5. Embers

    Embers New Member Political Irish

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    How do you know that?

    Let me predict your response.

    What kind of a stupid question is that! Of course we lived in communal societies, of course there was no private property! It's just obvious! Even you, a right wing nut job should be able to see that. It's just obvious!

    But me don't know how society was structured for 2 million years. It's not recorded and no amount of Boasian wishful thinking changes that.

    There is an indicator though. The first American pioneers tried to live in communal socities. They died of starvation.

    Again this is part of the historical record.
     
  6. OP
    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    We have a lot of anthropological studies which show that the more primitive forms of society don't have private property - at least in the means of production. A man may own a knife, but he doesn't claim to own the land from which he takes fruit or hunts game. The English settlers who tried to live a communal life in the Americas were surrounded by millions of people who were living a communal life.
     
  7. Embers

    Embers New Member Political Irish

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    Let me reframe this.

    Of my issues with Marxism, the one you choose to argue with was 'The natural order'

    I would generalise and say that all forms of life and habitats settle into a predictable hierarchy, this manifests in all societies. The idea of equality of or for all is not found in nature.

    You countered with Communisim is the natural order of things and there can be no private property in nature and as we lived in simple societies for millions of years this must be the best way.

    You cited "anthropology", I tried to cut you off at the pass already by mentioning Boas, but anyway.

    There is no way to prove how we lived for 2 million years. We could take a look at our ancient tales whereby people on Ireland did have private property in land and in cattle. But I doubt that would satisfy you.

    These communes that you like, the native Americans. What did they achieve with their system of communal living? Did they build a Notre Dame? Did they figure out calculus? Did they map the world?

    No, quite simply they didn't. Because with communal everything, there is reason work hard. Nothing extra to be gained.

    For a long time in Europe(recorded history), the hierarchy of society was, the family, local friends and neighbours and then the regional king/despot.
     
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    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    Private property in the means of production is a function of the state, and the state is an artificial construct. That being the case, we wouldn't expect to see private property in the means of production in nature. And yes there is always hierarchy in nature, and so too there is hierarchy in Communism. There was no private property in land and cattle in Ireland. The clann Taoiseach rented land and cattle to the Bóaire, and in turn, the Taoiseach was elected by the class elders. What he was renting out to the Bóaire was not his private property, but clann territory. Again, this territory was not private property in that there was no state that guaranteed deeds to it.

    As for building Notre Dame, I didn't suggest that primitive societies were the best way to live, but only that human beings evolved in these Primitive Communist societies. This is what we are hard wired for. Capitalism and private property is a new experiment - and it seems to have already failed. And, as for Notre Dame, it's building does seem to have been a communal effort rather than a private one.
     
  9. Embers

    Embers New Member Political Irish

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    Nicely done there.

    I missed a post of yours. Successful Communist states...

    The Soviet Union did a tremendous job in a way, as you mentioned. It industrialzed in a generation, yes. You could argue that the development of Soviet Russia was a miracle in a way.

    But do you understand how this happened?
    This wasn't due to everybody getting together, high fiving and saying let's go team.

    This was done on the back of your beloved worker. Millions died in slave labour camps. "Gulags" estimated dead - between 2 and 3 million. This is conservative according to Solzhenitsyn. Read his book, I've heard it's grim.

    The Gulag Archipelago in three volumes : Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

    The collectivization of farms was a tragedy leading to famine and starvation. They were so common Wikipedia has its own page dedicated to them.

    Droughts and famines in Russia and the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

    Don't forget the Holodomor, where 7-10 million people died. A planned famine by the Jewish Communist leadership.

    Holodomor - Wikipedia

    Now the industrialization and introduction of mechanization. All this technology came from the US under the war time Lend Lease Act directed by Harry Hopkins. Entire factories were broken down and shipped off to Russia.
    Lend-Lease - Wikipedia

    Russia's nuclear program including the uranium that they used to build their first bomb was sent using the Lend Lease program. You can read about that in Diana West's 'American Betrayal'

    http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=CDDF1F41C8E6F605D3B7C4DFD2BEC1FA

    The centrally planned economy was unable to provide the basic necessities of life leading to intermittent famines. As mentioned above comrade.


    It defeated Germany you say... It did... throwing your between 26 and 40 million workers to their death. Then took half of Europe under it's banner. Not one of those countries would welcome Communisim back.

    China? Mao killed between 45 and 60 million in his agrarian revolution. The country's economy was in stagnation until it reformed. It initially created a beneficial environment for big globalist countries to come and take advantage of it's workforce. It also pegged the currency to the dollar, greatly improving the prospect for multi-nationals. But this has nothing to do with your Marxism.

    The other Asian countries seeing the changes in China tried to emulate, with Vietnam being the most successful. It more or less abandoned it's communist ideas after a touch and go famine in the 80s.

    Laos has no workforce, it has no people, the Laos government are raping their natural resources and selling them to Vietnam/China. The huddled masses see little benefit from this. I live in one of your communist paradises, I do know what I am talking about.


    Your idea of a communist country doesn't exist. The countries of Asia, left your type of idealism behind, cause it doesn't work. It's been replaced by vapid consumerism.

    Cuba? Why do so many people try to flee these countries?

    You claim communism is a return to the natural way of the world. It's not.

    You can make your argument about the means of production all you like but this is the fact...

    In the 20th Century, communism killed between 94 and 127 million people.

    I got a bit carried away there. I know you must be LARPing about your support for Communisim. It doesn't stand up to any rigour.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  10. OP
    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    You seem to forget that forcing the European peasantry off the land and into the factories was a genocidal process over a 200 year period - not least in Ireland, where the Irish peasants where forced off the land of Ireland and into the factories of England and North America though starvation. The Soviet Union condensed 200 years of industrial brutality into one generation. Of course, Communism killed nothing like 94 or 127 million people. Those figures are basically adding up everyone who died in the 20th century in Communist countries and blaming it on Communism - including those killed in the USSR by the Germans and everyone killed in China by the Japanese - along with everyone killed in Korea and Vietnam by the Yanks and their running dogs.

    As for people "fleeing" Communist countries, you have to realise that Communism has taken hold in countries that were essentially Third World to begin with. There was massive poverty in them before Communism, and Communism is no bed of roses. Many people will be enticed by the glittering lights of Europe and North America that they see on their TV screens (which they wouldn't have had without Communism). But, when they reach Europe and North America they see the reality of life here - and many of them become the most bitter enemies of Capitalism.
     
  11. OP
    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    I see on Google Answers that 50% of the world's population have never made a phone call. I'm pretty sure that none of those people live in Communist countries.
     
  12. Embers

    Embers New Member Political Irish

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    You have just explained away 94 million deaths without investigating the figures.

    I would point you toward a book but I expect you wouldn't read it.

    I think the academics and historians have been too kind to Communisim.

    I think that western countries are on a slower road to your Utopia. You might see your Marxist society but you should investigate what life would be like under it.

    Soviet Russia had it's borders to keep people in.
     
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    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    I think your real problem is not with Communism, but with industrialization - which is always a genocidal process. I don't blame you for this. But your error seems to be in forgetting the horrors of Capitalist industrialization just because they took place over 200 years instead of 20 years.
     
  14. OP
    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    I take it you are in favour of the free movement of labour, i.e. mass immigration.
     
  15. OP
    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    Capitalism \ Individualism is a rebellion against the natural order, which is Communal. In reality, it is Communism that is the true Conservative force in the world.
     
  16. Embers

    Embers New Member Political Irish

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    Haha, yes, yes. There is no saving you from ignorance. Okay comrade. Continue to LARP, they have proven to be dangerous ideas in the past but perhaps you are special and you can build a Marxist state that works where others have failed.

    I hope this revolutionary 19th century lens that you are using to view 21st reality hasn't spread to too many people. As I said before, when you are misled, you will mislead.
     
  17. OP
    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    We Communists have two million years of experience, while you Capitalists are barely 300 years in the world.
     
  18. Toby Carlton-Hogge

    Toby Carlton-Hogge Member Political Irish

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    Keep dreaming, Timmy..

    I'm sure you are a harmless auld buffoon I r l.
     
  19. OP
    Tadhg Gaelach

    Tadhg Gaelach Legend Political Irish Donator Battle Royale

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    Thank God the only harm you do in the world is to litter our threads and bring down the intellectual tone of this website.
     
  20. Toby Carlton-Hogge

    Toby Carlton-Hogge Member Political Irish

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    Tee, you really know how to hurt a guy! !!

    That was uncalled for, insulting a well-respected poster.