Discussion in 'Europe' started by YoungStudent, Oct 29, 2017.
Well the Catalan "nation" is part in Spain and part in France, so why have they not declared independence for all the nation.
It's a sham. The declaration of independence refers only to the Spanish side....making it an artificial nation which never existed.
That's a detail I wouldn't know anything about. I'm just saying that Spain isn't a natural nation. It's a collection of nations unified by force.
Personally I haven't made up my mind about all this yet.
I’m the same. I’m not sure what to make of it all.
I would disagree Tadgh. The UK is a union of two nations who go back over a millennia. The Basque region was never a nation in its own right. Spain is definitely not artificial.
Of course it was. In fact, the Basque Country was the only place in what is now "Spain" to stop the Muslim invasion. They fought so well, that the Muslims left them alone and went on to invade France.
As for the "UK" it is a supposed union of four states - actually three states violently invaded by one state.
Ach how long ago was that Tadgh
The point is that it has been a distinct nation for a very long time. As I say, they speak the oldest language in Europe - which was in Europe before the Indo-European invasions. If anybody in Europe deserves to be independent - it's the Basques.
I found this book to be a good The Basque History of the World: The Story of a Nation by Mark Kurlansky if anyone was interested on the Basques.
Basque and Navarre is still apart of Spain and the basque language spans both Spain and France, so France does not want any of this happening as well, its whole south region is in danger of similar calls for independence. And with all the muslims in the place, how long before an independent caliphate of Paris starts kicking off. Balkanisation of Europe ?
Anyway, no one putting much out of these politicians leading these people off a cliff, so ill dump this here, what i could find.
Here's a general take an ethnic/nationalist catalan
Catalan supremacism - Wikipedia
This nationalism is being pushed by parties like Republican Left of Catalonia - Wikipedia ERC
It had Heribert Barrera - Wikipedia leading it.
Google Tradutor Heribert Barrera: "If Catalonia has to go well, Spain has to go bad, go bad"
If the current migratory flows continue, Catalonia will disappear," says the octogenarian political leader, who acknowledges that "if I knew that blacks and Maghreb would speak all Catalan, immigration would seem less problematic, but I would not think it would benefit us at all. I do not pretend that a country should have a pure breed, but there is a genetic distribution in the Catalan population that is statistically different from that of the sub-Saharan population. There are many characteristics of the person that come genetically determined and intelligence is a ...
Barrera warns that today everything is labeled a racist, and racism is only considering one race superior to another. "When Haider says that in Austria there are too many foreigners he does not make any racist proclamations. It means that he wants to preserve Austrian society just as he likes. " However, he considers blacks less intelligent: "the IQ of blacks in the United States is inferior to that of whites" and does not make him disgusted by the sterilization of "a mentally weak because of a genetic factor." '
Now ERC is lead by Oriol Junqueras - Wikipedia This guy is vice president of Catalan, from Catalan supremacism - Wikipedia
'In 2008, Oriol Junqueras, the leader of Catalonia's main pro-independence left-wing party Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya since 2011, published an article in the Catalan newspaper Avui in which he made the following statements regarding population genetics:
...Catalans have a closer genetic proximity to the French than to the Spaniards; more with the Italians than with the Portuguese, and a little with the Swiss. Meanwhile Spaniards have a lot of proximity with the Portuguese and very little with the French. Strange..." - '
He helped set up Junts pel Sí - Wikipedia
"coalition which won 62 seats in the 135-member Parliament of Catalonia"
The biggest party in the coalition is Catalan European Democratic Party - Wikipedia PDeCAT which has that weird looking chap you see on tv Carles Puigdemont - Wikipedia as leader and hes president.
More of an all encompasing pro liberal pro catalan pro europe party.
But the coalition also includes more ERC like parties like Democratic Convergence of Catalonia - Wikipedia CDC led by this guy, Artur Mas - Wikipedia who was president and has an interesting background
"Juan Mas Roig, great-great-grandfather of the former president of the Generalitat Artur Mas, was a slave ship captain who in 1844 moved 825 slaves from Africa to Brazil."
And he thinks catalans are less spanish and more german, from Catalan supremacism - Wikipedia
'In 2012 Artur Mas, President of the Catalan government between 2010 and 2016 and leader of Democratic Convergence of Catalonia published an article in La Vanguardia explaining his views on the relationship between Catalonia and other regions of Spain.
Catalonia, twelve centuries ago, belonged to the Marca Hispanica and the capital was Aachen, the heart of the Carolingian Empire. Something must remain in our DNA, because the Catalans we have an umbilical cord which makes us more Germanic and less Roman..
— Artur Mas, Interview in La Vanguardia, 2012 '
He's no fool, he knows which poles to grease, President Mas: "Israel is a strategic country for Catalonia and we wa… and who inspires him “It is wonderful Israel can be a source of inspiration for Catalonia’”, Alon Bar, Ambassador (Israel) | Reagrupament International
CDC used to be run by this guy Jordi Pujol - Wikipedia, total crook
Either way a very anti spanish, somewhat pro ethnic german/italian/catalan ?, pro EU coalition, but if the EU bid fails they can allways try to be a tax haven and get more foreign investment
The Popular Front 4 the Liberation of Greater Catalonia supports the return of Alghero to the Democratic Republic of Catalonia - This is why..
'In English, the term referring to a person first appears in the mid 14th century as Catelaner, followed in the 15th century as Catellain (from French).
During much of its history, and especially during the Francoist dictatorship (1939–1975), the Catalan language has often been degraded as a mere dialect of Spanish. This view, based on political and ideological considerations, has no linguistic validity. Spanish and Catalan have important differences in their sound systems, lexicon, and grammatical features, placing the language in a number of respects closer to Occitan (and French).'
Northern Catalonia with respect to Catalonia, Spain (left); Northern Catalonia within France (right).
The Crown of Aragon in 1443.
Catalan - It is the only official language of Andorra, and a co-official language of the Spanish autonomous communities of Catalonia, the Balearic Islands and Valencia (where the language is known as Valencian). It also has semi-official status in the Italian commune of Alghero. These territories are often called Catalan Countries.
Following the French capture of Algeria (1833), that region saw several waves of Catalan-speaking settlers. People from the Spanish Alacant province settled around Oran, whereas Algiers received immigration from Northern Catalonia and Menorca. Their speech was known as patuet. By 1911, the number of Catalan speakers was around 100,000. After the declaration of independence of Algeria in 1962, almost all the Catalan speakers fled to Northern Catalonia (as Pieds-Noirs) or Alacant.
Nowadays, France recognizes only French as an official language. Nevertheless, on 10 December 2007, the General Council of the Pyrénées-Orientales officially recognized Catalan as one of the languages of the department and seeks to further promote it in public life and education.
The number of Pieds-Noirs who fled Algeria totalled more than 800,000 between 1962 and 1964.
The French administration avoided acknowledging the true numbers of refugees in order to avoid upsetting its Algeria policies. Consequently, few plans were made for their return, and, psychologically at least, many of the Pieds-Noirs were alienated from both Algeria and France.
Many Pieds-Noirs settled in continental France, while others migrated to New Caledonia, Australia, Spain, Israel, Italy, the United States, Canada and Argentina.
Catalan is still spoken in Sardinia, (Alghero), and is one of the four languages spoken by the Pieds-Noirs, alongside French, Occitan and Spanish.
Thanks, I get the claim on east coastal spain and a bit of france by one group.
But you have others in the coalition talking about "us more Germanic and less Roman" and the Marca Hispanica - Wikipedia, they are all over the place.
The trouble is we don't know who the so called silent majority are,because the Madrid government didn't have the gumption to let the Catalonians have a referendum.I'm sure they must be regretting this now.By the way calling the noisy Spanish unionists silent is most definitely inaccurate.Let's remember greedy gravy train EU politicians don't want real democracy,they are seeing their precious EU collapsing and it's breaking their hearts.
Is that because you are woman?
Most of the posters on the other site who’s opinion I follow haven’t made up their mind yet either so I can’t say which side I am on yet either . Personally I can’t see the big deal in deciding for one or the other I wish they would get with deciding as people are asking me what I think and I look stupid not knowing what is the right answer .
It's the Spanish government that are looking pretty stupid estupido.
I would argue both sides have made a mess of this, let's hope its a peaceful resolution for all.
I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. I presumed, perhaps wrongly, that the comments suggesting the Catalans were closer to the Italians than Madrid was a reference to the Catalan speaking population of Alghero. I'm not sure what to make of the comments suggesting that they are more German and less Roman but there's a good article on Post No.5 on the Manx Independence News thread: The Manx and the Catalans – Different People, the Same Struggle Allen Moore, Mec Vannin International Relations Officer, which might answer some of your question, or put your mind at ease about the possibilities of the Catalan Nationalists being the 'wrong type of Germans'..
'Many thousands of Catalans fled their country at the start of 1939 ahead of the advance of Franco's forces. The majority of them went to France and were accommodated in what were effectively concentration camps out in the open in mid winter. Despite that, Catalans were very much on our side in WW2. They'd already had their hopes dashed by fascism, which was emboldened by its success in the Spanish Civil War. We were on the fascists' hit list. Many Catalans worked on France's Maginot Line and, when France surrendered to Hitler, many were either sent back to Spain for execution or were imprisoned in the Nazi concentration camps. One of the prisoners in Mauthausen was Francesc Boix i Campo, who was from Barcelona. A photographer by trade, his skills were used when he was imprisoned in Mauthausen to develop photographs taken by the camp guards to document for the Reich what they did to the prisoners, everything from forced labour to their methods of killing them. Boix and an accomplice copied the photographs and an Austrian lady hid them in a wall where she lived. These photographs were used as evidence at the Nuremburg trials. They provided proof that senior Nazi officials, such as Ernst Kaltenbrunner, visited Mauthausen despite their claims that they hadn't. Other Catalans fought in the Maquis, while Doctor Josep Tueta i Raspall, who was chief of Trauma Services in Barcelona during the Civil War, escaped to the UK and worked in England to help organise emergency services there. Hitler used the Spanish Civil War as a training ground for his forces for the airborne bombing of civilians in the war that followed, including in the UK. Tueta's experience of treating the types of injuries suffered because of aerial bombing raids saved many lives. As an aside, Tueta also joined the team in Oxford which took penicillin from a discovery to a product that could be used for treating patients.'
Patrick O'Connell was a Dubliner, so it's Barcelona/Dublin v Madrid/Cork!!!